Expansion Teams: A Comparison
by Ryan Gates on Feb 7, 2011 2:50 PM PST
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Coach Spencer doesn't want to use the term "expansion" to describe the Timbers. He wants to use "new" as a description. I agree with the premise, I just disagree with the word "new". I would say our team is "evolving" or "changing". So we are not an expansion team, nor a new team, we are an evolving team. Let me explain my reasons for this. To do so we need to look at the expansion teams that have come before us.
1998: Chicago Fire and Miami Fusion
- Chicago had 56 points (1.75 Points per game), third best in all MLS and 2nd in Western Conference and won the "Double", both MLS and open Cups
- Miami had 39 points (1.21 ppg) and came in third in the Eastern Conference, but made the playoffs.
- RSL had 20 points (.625 ppg) only ahead of ...
- Chivas which had 18 points (.56 ppg)
- Toronto ended dead last in the Eastern Conference and had 25 points (.833 ppg)
- San Jose ended dead last in the Western Conference and had 33 points (1.1ppg)
- Seattle finished third in the Western Conference with 47 points (only 1 point out of first and 1.56 ppg) and made the playoffs
- Philly ended 7th out of 8 teams, above a dreadful DC team, with 31 points(1.03 ppg)
- We will have to wait and see
NOTE: I used points per game (ppg) as another metric to show how well the team did or did not do (in 2005 the number of games went from 32 to 30 and this year it will be 34). 1.5 ppg is good enough to get you into the playoffs.
Looking at that list we have a lot of teams we could draw conjecture from. First and foremost we want to have the same success achieved by the Chicago Fire. Granted there were only 12 teams in the league that year. Also you can see that all the other expansion teams with the exception of Seattle finished in the bottom half of the league. Scared yet?
The Last Two Expansion Teams: A Closer Look
Now let’s take a closer look at Seattle and Philly rosters and their final place in the standings. By looking at them and comparing our own situation we can get an idea of how competitive the Timbers are going to be this year.
Take a look at the Philly and Seattle rosters side by side for their inaugural season, just their name and last team they played on listed:
| Philly (2010) | Seattle (2009) | ||
| Name | Previous Team | Name | Previous Team |
| Brad Knighton | NE Revolution | Chris Eylander | Sounders |
| Juan Diego Gonzalez | La Equidad (Colombia) | Michael Fucito | Harvard U |
| Toni Stahl | Uconn | Brad Evans | Columbus Crew |
| Danny Califf | Midtjylland (Denmark) | Patrick Ianni | Houston Dynamo |
| Michael Orozco Fiscal | San Luis (Mexico) | Tyson Wahl | Kansas City Wizards |
| Jordan Harvey | Colorado | Osvaldo Alonso | Charleston Battery |
| Cristian Arrieta | Puerto Rico Islanders | James Riley | San Jose Earthquakes |
| Sheanon Williams | Harrisburg (USL-2) | Peter Vagenas | Los Angeles Galaxy |
| Shea Salinas | San Jose | Sebastien Le Toux | Sounders |
| J.T. Noone | Harrisburg (USL-2) | Freddie Ljungberg | West Ham United |
| Eduardo Coudet | Colon (Argentina) | Steve Zakuani | U Akron |
| Fred Carreiro | DC United | Nathan Sturgis | Real Salt Lake |
| Stefani Miglioranzi | Los Angeles Galaxy | Jarrod Smith | Toronto FC |
| Kyle Nakazawa | UCLA | Tyrone Marshall | Toronto FC |
| Justin Mapp | Chicago Fire | Stephen King | Chicago Fire |
| Andrew Jacbson | DC United | Evan Brown | Wake Forest U |
| Roger Torres | America De Cali (Colombia) | Fredy Montero | Deportivo Cali |
| Sebastian Le Toux | Sounders | Kasey Keller | Fulham FC |
| Nick Zimmerman | New York | Leonardo Gonzalez | Municipal Liberia (Costa Rica) |
| Alenjandro Moreno | Columbus | Kevin Forrest | Sounders |
| Chris Seitz | Real Salt Lake | Zach Scott | Sounders |
| Amobi Okugo | UCLA | Nate Jaqua | Houston Dynamo |
| Jack McInerney | US-17 academy | Sanna Nyassi | Sounders, Ports Authority (Gambia) |
| Danny Mwanga | Oregon State | Roger Levesque | Sounders |
| Taylor Graham | Sounders | ||
| Lamar Neagle | UNLV | ||
| Terry Boss | NY Red Bulls, Charlotte Eagles | ||
| Jhon Kennedy Hurtado | Deportivo Cali | ||
| Ben Dragavon | Sounders |
Sources for the Rosters: Seattle and Philly
Note: The number of players is different due to the fact that developmental players did not count as senior roster spots.
Trivia Note: Sebastian Le Toux played two expansion seasons in a row. Too bad one was with Philly.
Only the name and the previous team is included because I looked at a lot of different factors already. I looked at average age, experience and other stats. There was no correlation between any of the expansion teams. The teams all had different strategies and in their seasons and all finished second-to-last or last. Except for the Sounders.
So what was so different about the Sounders’ roster compared to a second-to-last place expansion side in Philly? There is only one fact that makes Seattle different: they brought up players from their USL team. Granted, not all of them had significant playing time but they had playing time together before, and therefore knew each other on the pitch and off.
So what does this all mean? Why does it matter if you bring in players that have played together?
Soccer is one sport where chemistry can have a huge affect. A good team is just that: a team. Soccer is influenced by the chemistry of your team. I have played with some great individual players over the years but the best teams I have ever been on were amazing "teams". We had amazing chemistry, and had played together for 3 or 4 years. Granted, we added and lost a few players year to year but we kept a core group of players together.
Seattle did not need a big adjustment and, while unfortunately for Philly there was no similar foundation and therefore they struggled until they gelled as a team.
What does it mean for the Portland Timbers? Looking at the Timbers roster we have gone through a process similar to Seattle. We signed players from our USL team, we have the "culture" built already and the chemistry of a core group of players. We just need to get the newest players used to playing together, which may take time. But, luckily, less time than if they all came from different teams.
The Timbers are not a new team. They are "evolving" because all we really have done is changed to a new league with some new players.
RCTID
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Could you add that FO and organizational bodies were similar for the move up, but not the case for Philly?
Not sure that applies so much to Seattle, they went from USL organization to the being included in Seahawk’s FO. The FO didn’t move, it was disbanded and another took its place. Some pieces did move along.
There could be something said about institutional knowledge and how that helps grease the gears. Players are no doubt part of that institution.
Jag kom, jag såg, erövrade jag.
Yes
That obviously adds to the argument. Having a FO that moves up together is a distinct advantage. We have all been at a new job where we have to have our “feeling out period”. I can imagine that might have a small affect on the team.
Is there any area that you think the Timbers are at a disadvantage compared to other expansion teams?
Perhaps being too awesome?
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
by BruinHalo on Feb 7, 2011 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
I know Spencer has been doing a good job so far (from the outside anyway), but I am curious to see how a first-time head coach manages this season.
Without sounding intentionally mysterious, word has it that Spencer isn’t the most player-friendly coach. And my understanding of other sports tells me that this could be true. It’s often hard for former players to turn around and coach so quickly after playing (Spencer retired from the Rapids in 2004). But who knows? I hope he turns out to be an amazing manager.
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
Also,
as an addendum,
interviews have shown that Spencer is appreciated by the Timbers. So I really hope I’m wrong.
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
My next post
Deals a little with Spencer and his ideas about playing style and player type preference.
the first time head coach thing has me a little concerned
I will be honest…
At the same time, the foundation of team culture, with a guy trying to develop his own coaching style might prove advantageous. May not blow the entire existing mentallity up like an experienced head coach might to put his own stamp on it so to speak.
Spence is still carving out the grooves in his stamp…
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
I have yet to see a negative quote regarding Spencers relations with past players. Most indications point out that he has very good player coach relations. Here is a quote from Brian Ching as found here (http://www.oregonlive.com/timbers/index.ssf/2010/07/tough_guy_john_spencer_tops_li.html):
Through all the toughness, the Dynamo players saw another side of Spencer that ran against the public image.
“He is a funny guy and he kept the locker room light. I think he’s going to be a fantastic coach … a players’ coach,” Ching said. “He works hard and he has a real dedication and love for the game. I think that’s going to get him a long way in the coaching field.”
Spencer also served as an assistant in Houston wtih Dominic Kinnear where they
won two cup championships and advanced to the cup finals in 09’. He also coached the Houston reserve team to a championship in 08’. This is found here: http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/5452227/john-spencer-named-portland-timbers-first-coach-mls
I agree with you. I hope he turns out to be an amazing manager.
Good Question
I look at Vancouver and the previous expansion teams and I think we are on par, if not better off in a lot of ways. The only thing we have is questions. Like does the FO (mainly Gavin Wilkinson) have the Scouting touch? Also will Gilbert and Perlaza work out and become successes? I just don’t see us at a disadvantage. Just some questions left to be answered.
Expansion Draft
Taking whichever 11 we wanted out of the draft as a single expansion entry would have been a significant advantage, even at the slight cost of not being able to draft Moffat and Brunner or Horst and Findley.
Yes
As it was we had to compete with another team for the players we wanted. Unlike the last few expansions.
Midfielders
I want to be optimistic but I have a sinking feeling that the team is really going to struggle unless they get a significant upgrade in the midfield SOON. Two weeks into the pre-season and still no sign of the promised “special” midfielder. It will take a while before that player, if he ever even arrives, gels with the team. The midfield they have will not hack it in the MLS.
With the Dike injury...
Would we be going with a 4-4-2?
Or do we have enough ‘good’ mids to pull off a 4-3-3?
Just wondering what the general thought is…
Not the mids to worry about
The central facet of a good 4-3-3 is a target striker in the middle to get forward, hold the ball, and find the flanking forwards making runs. This hasn’t historically been Cooper’s preferred method of play and even if we put him in the position he has no clear backup who could also fill that role. Our midfield as it is now is underrated, although obviously could still be improved. In fact, playing a 4-3-3 robs us of midfield width, which with Pore, Hall, Alhassan and Nagbe could be positions of strength.
Aren't the 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 really only different based on how far up the field the wingers get?
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 8, 2011 1:14 AM PST up reply actions
Yes
Yes, in that a really poorly played, executed, or overwhelmed will look like a 4-5-1.
But it really depends on how you play the three strikers – an inverted triangle with 2 strikers and deep forward/attacking MF or 1 holding striker and two outside forwards.
Also, a 4-5-1 usually has significant defensive connotation as well as 2 central midfielders playing side by side.
Nominally yes
Tactically, you tend to run into some glaring differences. Wide forwards pushed up that high typically means that your fullbacks will be isolated in defense, so you have less chances for overlapping runs in a true 4-3-3.You have to hope that the threat of your forwards keep their fullbacks restrained so your defenders don’t get overrun. The 3rd central midfielder’s responsibilities can also be pretty radically changed. In a 4-2-3-1 version of a 4-5-1, you’ll have 2 defensive midfielders and one attacking midfielder sitting in “the hole”. In a 4-3-3, that midfielder would have to drop back much further and assist in defensive duties.
In both systems though, you still need a central striker who can play with his back to the goal and hold possession. Otherwise, you lose the ability to set your own tempo and you start relying almost solely on counters to produce scoring chances.
The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the Barcelona team of circa 2005, which played a 4-3-3 (typically Van Bommel/Marquez, Xavi, Iniesta/Deco in midfield and Ronaldinho, Giuly and Eto’o at forward). In this situation, you had Ronaldinho playing a free role. Although listed as playing on the left, he would almost always cut in from that position to receive possession and hold up play as the midfielders got forward. He had the superior dribbling ability and vision to keep the ball, find players and produce chances while Gio van Bronckhorst got forward from left back to provide width. This is something potentially Nagbe has the skill set and ability to provide, but that’s a hell of an assignment for a 1st year player.
Isn't your brother a regular here too?
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 7, 2011 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Right-o.
Super-secret surprise forthcoming.
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 7, 2011 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
I'm wondering when we're scheduling the family reunion.
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 7, 2011 10:50 PM PST up reply actions
That was your brother's fault.
My forthcoming super-secret surprise had nothing to do with your brothers and everything to do with what you said.
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 7, 2011 10:59 PM PST up reply actions
my super-secret surprise is out.
Look below your name.
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 8, 2011 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
Right-O. I'm going to post something tomorrow, probably. Time constraints, don't you know.
Wherever you are, here you go.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 8, 2011 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I would agree but
besides le toux, and every now and then scott and levesque, none of the usl sounders really played.
A sky of blue, a sea of green...(or claret)
Having those players on your squad helps build cohesiveness quicker than other teams. Even if they didn’t play in games, its a big advantage.
i still dont buy it
i mean, i get having chemistry and that thats hugely important, but between players that play together, not players sitting on the bench, or for the 09 sounders sake not even in the 18. That part i dont buy. But if the timbers and whitecaps have good years, then maybe there is something to it, but for now i dont buy it
A sky of blue, a sea of green...(or claret)
by kelliott1527 on Feb 9, 2011 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
Here's an idea
Coach Spencer doesn’t want to use the term “expansion” to describe the Timbers. He wants to use “new” as a description. I agree with the premise, I just disagree with the word “new”
How ‘bout “newly promoted”? In essence that’s what happened – the Timbers were in a lower league last year and are now in MLS. thus, promotion!
It didn't come via a lower league championship or a playoff
but it’s still moving up a league, so promoted works for me.
The one thing about promoted that doesn't work for me
is that it implies that the same Timbers squad is moving up to MLS. In essence, it’s really a brand new Timbers squad with a couple of remnants. The logo and colors (Rose City FC) even changed.
It really is a new team.
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
A team changing logos and color wouldn't be unheard of
At least in other sports… Not sure how this applies to soccer
Blazers win!
The comparison between Philly and Seattle, or any other expansion team, is unfair.
“So what was so different about the Sounders’ roster compared to a second-to-last place expansion side in Philly? There is only one fact that makes Seattle different: they brought up players from their USL team.”
For one, Philadelphia did not have the luxury of an USL team preceding its MLS incarnation. There was no opportunity for Piotr Nowak to sign any players that had played together. The 2010 Union were a collection of expansion draft selections, trialists, SuperDraft picks and signings from PDL teams.
Secondly, the Union played a good portion of the season on the road. Unlike most teams they were forced to move many home games to away games due to PPL Park not being prepared for the season. That coincided with a terrible road record and gaining almost every point at home.
Third, look at the expansion draft this year versus last year’s draft. It was immensely deeper, even after taking into account that Wondo and Le Toux were available. As I write this comment the Union only have five players remaining from that draft. Not the largest wealth of talent in 2010.
Managing Editor for Brotherly Game, SBNation's Philadelphia Union blog and contributor for SBN Philly. // @scottdkessler
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
Portland only has five players remaining that it drafted in the expansion draft.
McCarty got shipped to DC, Findley and Bornstein left the country, Jordan Graye and Arturo Alvarez got shipped off for allocation money.
I write for Stumptown Footy, SB Nation's Portland Timbers blog.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 10, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
It would be six if you counted Rodney Wallace, I suppose.
I write for Stumptown Footy, SB Nation's Portland Timbers blog.
by thehemogoblin on Feb 10, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
The Timbers chose to ‘waste’ two selections on Findley and Borestein. The trades were made because the team had the benefit of signing USL players.
Managing Editor for Brotherly Game, SBNation's Philadelphia Union blog and contributor for SBN Philly. // @scottdkessler
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Feb 10, 2011 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
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